Forum:Image Guidelines
Pre-update discussion Okay I'm going to ask nicely, due to the fact that there is already a topic for images, this isn't a discussion for images at all - go to the topic for that. This discussion is for the current state of the guidelines and let everyone express their thoughts and feelings on what must be changed. Despite my suggestion no one gave me any preposals to ammend image guidelines on. So anyway, long story short I'm reading through the recent image discussion Forum:Images on the wiki and draft up a ammended page, you'll see the draft tomorrow when I fully write it out. Theres some outstanding issues, unfortantely thanks to how the recent image topic is going I'm having to sit here and update the image guidelines with whats been said in the discussion, rather then someone prepose ammendments and we vote on them. The topic has been created here so to get people to FINALLY get on the subject of image guidelines, since we're stuck on the "desire" without the "decision" occuring on what we're doing. As I said to others, even if you get your own way, this is the page that then has to been updated as a reaction. Take note also, "Image Guidelines" is just that, notes on how to go about something. While it does contain "rules" section, the entire page is not all rules at all, as some freedom and allowance had been taken into consideration from the start so editors could make their own decisions on certain issues (For the curious on the difference between rule and guideline, its instead of "you can't use images with Fred in", "images with Fred in are not advisable to be used because..."). Anything written on the image discussion will be adressed, you may not like the update to cover some things but don't worry, the draft will not be put into place until we've had satisfactory time to discuss and make further amendments. Basically when we've got to a point that arguments aside, we've got a strong enough page to go in place, thats gonna make me a happy hawk. For those who want to see how things are Image Guidelines shows you the current status of the guidelines. Also a request; can someone add a link to this discussion on the image topic in the "appearance" forum? This computer has decided its not gonna like that topic due to its size anymore. Anyway I think I've now given everyone some food for thought to eat over the next number of hours. Discuss anyway for the moment. 19:05, September 11, 2010 (UTC) Disappointing Response Its beginning to notice... Youy know I'm wondering what the fuss was about in the last 2 weeks, aside from the problems coming from toggling we all seem fine with IG because theres no response to say OTHERWISE. Gosh, have we all died in the last few days? Honestly, I'm left wondering if all the cribs cause by kdom and party were just a case of trying to stir up trouble because this is getting stupid. Throughout the entire ordeal, I'm pushed the issue of getting the guidelines updated because Toggling and several other issues went against them - now their open to discuss the interest has died. ¬_¬' Please respond if you want progress on matters, even if its to put up a COUNTER guidelines. Because honestly, right now I'm wondering if in truth everyone was fine with the guidelines, they just wanted a fight over images. I care not either way if the issue resolves itself here and in this topic, if you don't respond the issue will just die and then we're be back to where we were before, and everyone will just have to settle on how things are done right now. Honestly... Seriously... Disappointed Hawk is. One-Winged Hawk 17:00, September 13, 2010 (UTC) :I haven't really responded because there is absolutely no point. You and Franky are already going to do what you want, no matter what the rest of us say as you did with the vote on image toggling. If you want our opinions see the vote on whether to include image toggling (which passed either 20 something to 7 or 10 to 5 depending on the vote). Bastian9 19:09, September 13, 2010 (UTC) :Also, don't bother contacting me for another vote. I have much better things to do than edit wikis with bad admins.Bastian9 19:17, September 13, 2010 (UTC) ::Thats actually quite rude and your stuck by your guns the whole thing is based on one issue while missing the point that the whole thing is more on another. Thats not a good sign for your part. *sigh* and for the love of all things, toggling fell through because a complication came through AFTER the voting began. A complication I pointed out, whether or not the issue of votes counted, the guidelines in particular would have been had to been alter in order to accept the new rules and NO ONE was prepared to prepose the changes. Without those changes, even with the vote in favor, the unaddressed issues would have prevented the toggling feature coming in. Also MF was neutral on the matter until the fault was pointed out in the idea and it became clear that the intention of toggling was merely 1 person trying to get their perferred image up and not for the general benefit to the entire wikia. ::While it was true me and MF put up a fight, is not an alternative perspective essential to any argument? And when I pull up the fact it conflicted with the IG was it not THEN the task of changes either the idea to fit the IG or the IG to fit the idea? No such thing happened and an arguement persued. Hence now I'm getting the attention on the matter so we can sort this once for all. While you stubbornly stick by the belief this is alol me and MF trying to force something here, if I have opened up the subject of the IG and even said someone else can provide their version, then that not suggesting we're open to others' point of view? In the end, IG can't change until a vote is done anyway... So yeah... Go ahead and prove your not anymore useful to the subject then you have been so far, because excuse the rudeness this whole thing was started because no one paid particular attention to the fact we have IG ine the first place and no one spotted the IG say we just need 1 image per Infobox... Not 2 as the new idea suggested with toggling. And all that would have taken was 5 minutes of rewrite... ::While I know I'm being rather agreesive here, I was annoyed in the first instance and only made more "fed up" on the whole image discussion that wernt ahead aftwareds. There was far too much talkin, cycling and discussion and no preposals to fix any of the matters at hand. 07:15, September 14, 2010 (UTC) Maybe if the topic Forum:How_to_increase_visibility_of_wikia_guidelines_and_important_discussions? has been answered properly, you wouldn't be that much disapointed. Also it appears that your uncompromising attitude may have gone against you as I can see from Bastian answer. I also fear that Tipota leaving might not be unrelated, I just hope that I'm wrong with that. It can also show that people don't see what's wrong with the current guidelines. I stop there with the unconstructive remarks. Could it be possible that you rewrite the article using colors (yes I don't always dislike them) to see what has changed, what is new, what is subject to discussion... Otherwise, my first thoughts *the welcome message shall be changes so as to add a link towards the different guidelines. *I'm not 100% happy with the anime/manga thing since it does not really speak about why this wiki needs manga images but I wait until the issue is solved *Is it possible to add that an image that can not be understood without a caption is not a good image. Kdom 19:41, September 13, 2010 (UTC) Kdom 19:41, September 13, 2010 (UTC) :While I'd admit that recent arguments are a bit uncompromising, some of the arguments didn't really provide a proper compromise between the two opposing sides. :For the Image guidelines themselves, it shows promise but some marking of which part is added or changed would indeed be helpful.Mugiwara Franky 04:37, September 14, 2010 (UTC) :I did take part in the discussion, but as far as I can see, nothing happened in the discussion on how to make the guidelines more visiable. As for my overall reaction, thats because once upon a time I was in many a argument on the wonderful site "wikipedia" the site that makes any wikipedian which to bash the brains out of the other wikipedians. Its nice having something... but if it conflicts with anything already put up then its got to be rethoought and often at wikipedia that wasn't a nice experience. :And when did I show no compremise? I said I didn't like how the ideas for toggling was put up, over time my attitude towards them changed. I also have yet to fully take a pro or anti-manga imnage vote myself. :I've shown the mistake I made preventing manga going on the wikia wasn't there and eithe4r was fine. Pointed out constantly that there isn't really a ultimate reason to choose either but you can have one or the other but a form standard is better (all one or the other) and continued to express concerns and issues to be adressed. If there is no one forming a compremise, then I'd have to say it would actually be you here Kdom not I, since you just didn't hit with me all the answer constantly. While you did put up ideas, they were just slight variations, making life harder for all editors. :Then when I give you the chance to change the wikia IG entirely, so far... I got either naught or the reaction I've got. :Anyway, on your points; :#Can be done :#The problem with that stnace is it doesn't really say on the anime stance either. It just really explains some general pointers we've discussed and left it up to users to decide on whats best, hoenstly right now I can't say too much since everyone hans't decided much so the vagueness is me waiting for things to come to a conclusion. :#Aw... Good point I'll add that as soon as I get on a computer that'll allow easy editing. :Also we really need to decide on the issue of toggling I haven't adressed that and can't until we decide something on that. Theres a toggling topic right now in one of the discussions. Also I will formeyrly apologise to a far omount of the reaction from me, I came back from editing another wikia from a haituys and walked into a problem wall, so my reintroduction to the wikia has so far been aunpleasent one and has made me regret not being around for the last few months. The other wikias up to snuff now and at a satisfactory level, but I've been met with the images problem upon my return here. Either left a holiday and walked in on your job when you get back to find the job you left temporary for that vacation is somewhat uneasy to refill? Thats my problem right there. 07:23, September 14, 2010 (UTC) Third one is bad. If the quality is good then the image would still be good regardless if it has a caption. SeaTerror 22:09, September 14, 2010 (UTC) Image team Otherwise Tipota Once suggested (here) that we create Project teams. I think that if the manga thing is finally accepted and that we need to decide what manga images we keep, this would be the best solution. A team of editors would be responsible of the images that are uploaded in the wiki (categorization, duplicate, modification). One could be part of the team for a month for example and then make a rotation so that everybody taste is displayed on the wiki. I think that would help stop the edit war (In particular some portrait and char box pictures which are constantly changed without reason but personal taste) and also it would ensure that the images we use are really the most appropriate since it would be the object of regular discussions. Once the team has agreed the image could be lock with a reference to their decision. That's a big change but I think that it would help make the wiki better. :For the image team, that may be good but it would kinda need a good number of people that are usually around the wikia. For rotation of images so that everybody's taste would be satisfied, that's impossible. No matter how organized the idea seems, it falls in the area of complication of satisfying everybody's taste and by everybody that includes every current and potential person who visits the wikia. There's also the matter that control over the images by a single team might become a bit too restrictive. I mean lets face it, there can always be someone who comes along that provides an image that satisfactory but the person is not part of the team. Mugiwara Franky 04:37, September 14, 2010 (UTC) Well there is not that much images upload, so I don't think that more than 4 of 5 people would be needed. Also it's not really to represent the taste of everyone but rather to stop the useless fightings, have pictures of better quality and be more organized because currently it's quite messy. Cf recent edit war over whitebeard pictures. If the team members are changing then there is a tacit law : I don't judge your taste so don't judge mine. Also the team would not have the monopole on the image uploading rather than be the guardian of the guidelines, if someone new upload an image, it should be up to the team to decide if we keep it or not. Currently it's not done and that's how we have some articles overload with images. The editor can then be warned that he can be part of the team if he desires. Kdom 18:42, September 14, 2010 (UTC) :the only thing I note is while there is a idea of a "team" being suggested... Isn't that the taske of the entire editor body already? I don't really care overall, so long as there is a common interest and desire to sort out the image problem and the guys involve work out this whole image problem before they begin. Although I am somewhat concerned of other editors being a left feeling a little outcasted unintentionally. Thats my 2p on the matter. 19:14, September 14, 2010 (UTC) Well that's why I suggested that the team roll, so that everyone can have a word. When you are in charge you make the wiki according to your taste but in exchange there is time when you let the other do the job. But that's just a proposition, and I wanted to hear your opinion about it. Kdom 19:42, September 14, 2010 (UTC) :Hey, no need for rudeness there, I wasn't trying to be rude then, I'm just fed up so it may have conveyed over more then it did. And I don't want to be an admin, I'm too demanding as a editor as it is, if I did there was the oppotunity to become one 3 or so years ago but I retractedmy name when I was suggested. I didn't go against you there though Kdom... I just said the obivous "Well isn't that the idea of the wikia anyway?" In my opinion, while editors can taks themselves with a particular job if they want, and no one is going to stop them doing it, if you start "teaming" you start isolating ediotrs because as I said, "team effort" is already the wikias goal and reason for the entire editing staff would be here. Can we all just get back to not being rude now, okay we've all had the arguments recently, but theres some serious issues to adress here. I must confess, just the fact we're not discussing instead of ignoring has made me a lot happier. :However, your team idea does make me wonder a little so do you mind if I "expand" on your idea? If we were to have a part of the forums where each images could be adressed and a "approved" template put up, then that might be a overall better approach that doesn't give the wikia editors a bad impression. Of couse we still need to sort out IG in the end. But you know what, if theres a "Approve" or "disapprove" template on images, we know which ones are staying and which aren't really good for their suggested use. If a "approved" image is replaced by one without a "approve" or one with a "disapprove" then it can be undone until further discussion is taken place. This would also be a desire to "lock" a page if the approved images entered edit wars with non-approved images. :So would expanding on the "team" idea be better for you kdom? However, the differences between us is that you care about images, I care about guidelines - perhaps you should consider how this is organised if you prefer this idea. At the end of the day, our conflicts of interest is half of what leaves us here at odds and I'm just happy if the agreements are settled on the IG... :Psst, also Kdom can you attempt to organise those "compremises" on the image topic of suggest alternative ideas you keep coming up, long story short; crappy computer + long discussion makes for a harder time. Plus the amount of emotions and heatedness if hard to adress opinions from ideas anymore. ^_^' 16:49, September 15, 2010 (UTC) Well in fact I do care about the guidelines. Half of my job in the wikia this year has been deeling with making people respect the guideline. That's also a big part of my disapointment in this story, since it seems like nobody noticed it. I must admit that I'm a bit tired of making the image police and if we can implement some rules and methods to make editors aware of the good behavior concerning the images like a regular discussion, I wouldn't complain. Kdom 12:02, September 18, 2010 (UTC) Issues That need Addressing Please can everyone list the issues outstanding now now must be adressed here in this section; *Toggle feature - its a big issue right now and I think, while I'm against it I'd like to leave room for places TO be used for within reason. Regardless, its got to be adress on all thats been said against how its been preposed still, Kdom in particular might not like some of it, but on the other hand its not being completely rejected entirely, its just a matter of us deciding hows the best way to make use of the tool for images, if at all. *Anime Vs manga - never an issue before, now is and must be addresed. I'll remind everyone;' the current guidelines have a blunder prevent manga being replaced indefinate with anime, I'm not going to change it to "correct" the issue as such, the new ammendment will support either not one or the other. *Rejecting image - I'm writing a percifica "Image Rejection" section covering when to reject images. *More detailed explainations - for why we do things as we do. *Put into words what has been unspoken. Remember this section of the page isn't for discussion, please don't use it as, just give me a list of the issues... Thats all. 19:05, September 11, 2010 (UTC) Ammend. Don't write in here yet folks! I'm saving this spot for when I've written up the the new draft, afterwards everyone will get a chance to pluck the update apart. What happens after that... I'm not sure. 19:05, September 11, 2010 (UTC) :what I have so far. Some things aren't yet on the page, I'm just asking if everyone is alright with the new suggested layout and a few beginner additions. If everyone is contempt, I can start. If you have suggestions on altertive words for the test, tell me, if you wish to correct spelling and gramma - yeah that never my strong point go ahead. One-Winged Hawk 10:59, September 12, 2010 (UTC)